Effective Method of Idea Validation. A talk with Mateusz Kaliszewski (Allegro).

Kamil
Hi, Hello to all of you very warmly. I'd like to welcome you to another episode of our podcast where we talk about technology, software and that kind of thing. Today we're going to continue with the topic of how to build ideas so that you don't lose out on them so that they turn out to be successful. With us today is special guest Matthew Maliszewski. Matthew if you could introduce yourself, please

Mateusz
Hello!

Mateusz
Hi Kamil, thanks for the invitation. So very briefly I'm a senior designer for Allegro, also a team leader, meaning I have my team that I manage by day on projects

Mateusz
Which we implement for.

Mateusz
Allegro.

Mateusz
Besides, I am also such an educational entrepreneur. You could say that I run my own online course owe related to the topic of today's podcast, namely Design Thinking.

Mateusz
Where I teach others.

Mateusz
How to do what I do, that is, how to use this method for exactly that.

Mateusz
Faster.

Mateusz
We find out and make sure that these ideas of ours actually make sense to users technically, whether they make sense and.

Mateusz
Do.

Mateusz
They can benefit us. I was also a lecturer at the University of Warsaw. I co-founded such a subject as Design Thinking and UX Research. Besides, I'm a physicist by training, and that's part of my history, too.

Mateusz
When it comes to Design Thinking.

Kamil
Super, Thanks Matthew. A very rich portfolio I would say from Sasa to las. Physicist, entrepreneur, trainer. How could you tell a little bit about what exactly was your story that brought you to the de facto place where you are now? And we're about to get right into this topic of Design Thinking. Why exactly Design Thinking and not something else?

Mateusz
Okay, so that's it. I studied physics at the University of Technology.

Mateusz
Warszawska Street and somewhere that soul.

Mateusz
Entrepreneur was, she did not let me forget about herself. I went a little. Maybe you can say from one that I did well in school, in high school. Well, then I went to college in this direction. On the other hand, it was precisely this entrepreneurial spirit, which germinated somewhere just in such teenage times, that did not let me forget about myself. And I began to look around for all sorts of events at the polytechnic related to startups, to entrepreneurship. Well, and that's how they come across Design Thinking workshops. Well, and I caught the bug. I just started to take a strong interest in this subject. Read books, articles, all the videos.

Mateusz
Some courses.

Mateusz
Free.

Mateusz
But also.

Mateusz
At the Polytechnic, she started out resiliently.

Mateusz
Act such.

Mateusz
Student organization related to this topic and I just got heavily involved in the activities of this organization from the very beginning.

Mateusz
And.

Mateusz
I was so involved in the activities of this organization that I began to be somewhere just there.

Mateusz
Combined with Design.

Mateusz
Thinking in different circles, well, because we did workshops, and that for students, but also for some companies smaller or larger. Well, and then the first orders for. For Design Thinking workshops in the sense of Matthew, that is, he led a workshop for such a company. We got such an order.

Mateusz
So here goes.

Mateusz
This passion I was simply engaged in. It turned out that there was a demand for it in the market.

Mateusz
I.

Mateusz
Companies simply want to be innovative and want to act in an innovative way to stay ahead of the competition or create some new products, services.

Mateusz
And so in everything.

Kamil
Well that the key word rather, because the super thing you just said is that it turned out that there is a demand for it and something that I'm kind of observing in the market that just the demand of course is there, because these more mature organizations know that it's worthwhile to pursue ideas, that it's worthwhile to test something first before going into something. But it seems to me that there is still a very big such GAP in the market, that, moreover, among especially startups or budding entrepreneurs, they have a bare-bones idea.

Mateusz
Yes, but it's even so because.

Mateusz
You know, it's startups are kind of specific people who are just in love with their ideas.

Mateusz
And they.

Mateusz
They just have such a hard time. What do you mean, after all. Well I just have to realize it, there is no waiting. In large organizations.

Mateusz
It is.

Mateusz
A different kind of Thinking. In the sense we have some project to carry out, which is estimated to bring us so much and so much money and.

Mateusz
We just do it.

Mateusz
And regardless of whether. Of course, there are studies, but they are already at such a stage, practically before implementation.

Mateusz
So here goes.

Mateusz
As if independently. Maybe even.

Mateusz
I would disagree.

Mateusz
I agree with you regarding the former. Here's the first thesis, that it's large organizations that are more willing to test, because there's a lot of that push to simply do things according to the document that we described road map, project plan and the like. So I here Design Thinking assumes that we strongly validate, and what is also probably so difficult in Design Thinking, in management, especially in a large organization, is that as if the implementation can be planned very easily. On the other hand, this process is so in a sense unpredictable, because what will turn out, like this need that we noticed somewhere, maybe it's not so very painful? Is this problem some painful hard to.

Mateusz
Customers.

Mateusz
Were they willing to pay for a solution? Or perhaps it turns out that it's a little different how customers see it?

Mateusz
Well, that's right. I had.

Mateusz
So that I kind of didn't think of Design Thinking as.

Mateusz
O.

Mateusz
A way of life in a certain.

Mateusz
Sense, just simply.

Mateusz
I wanted to use this method for some ideas of my own, because it turned out that you may not necessarily need to implement and.

Mateusz
Have.

Mateusz
Millions in your account to complete some business project. And that you can check that more important sometimes is the need or problem you see.

Mateusz
Ans.

Mateusz
The solution itself, of which there can be many solutions to a given problem.

Mateusz
And.

Mateusz
Thus, Design Thinking as an entrepreneurial method has also become.

Mateusz
Like.

Mateusz
The business idea itself so often, that people just started coming to me. And that's how somewhere with partners we started such a training company, a very small micro company, you can say, when still in college such an untried. Large corporations, people older than me could be my fathers, mothers. I conducted training or workshops for them.

Mateusz
So I was gaining experience.

Mateusz
Very early.

Kamil
Well, that's right, because you have this interesting perspective on this whole Design Thinking, but also just on this world of software development or idea validation in general. Well, because probably Design Thinking is not only used to validate software ideas, but probably also services, products, and so on. That's what we're going to talk about right now. Well, just now, your professional history has one interesting perspective. Because as you said, you just had your own company. Do you still have the training company that you started in college? Are you also doing online training now?

Mateusz
The model has changed.

Kamil
Again.

Mateusz
I say model up.

Mateusz
He made a difference in my business.

Kamil
Yes, but, but you're still just running this training company. You're also still doing these online trainings, you worked at Start Up Academy, so necessarily you just had a startup environment somewhere. Well, but now you're working at Allegro, so well, it's already such a big, mature organization, which has been on the market for very many years. There, these processes probably look very different. I'd like you to maybe talk a little bit about how, how just there validation of ideas looks from this different perspective, just from when we're such a solo, entrepreneur or just a micro entrepreneur, when we're a startup, because it's a little bit different world again. Well, and just from the perspective of a large organization. How did you look at it? You briefly touched on it a little bit, but that's what I'd like us to maybe hint a little bit deeper to our listeners about exactly how to behave in these environments or what to maybe pay attention to. Also.

Mateusz
Okay, so once we are a solo, entrepreneur or such a startup sheep that.

Mateusz
It has a very.

Mateusz
A lot of high causality in the sense of he decides, yes? Well, on the one hand we have it very easy to implement, because we just start doing it.

Mateusz
According to.

Mateusz
Art or contrary to art. It depends on how we learn it and what tools we use and whether we use them well. So here the issue is. The issue is.

Mateusz
Simple i.

Mateusz
I'm still here, too.

Mateusz
We have.

Mateusz
Here the whole plan for this podcast, so I'll also tell you how I, how I gave my ideas whether in this company or even if it's about my course itself, which I've been heavily promoting somewhere here lately, promoting in different places.

Mateusz
As for.

Mateusz
Startup Academy, well that's where I dealt with startup sheep, to whom I tried to show sort of a different perspective, not just that.

Mateusz
Just love.

Mateusz
For his ideas.

Mateusz
And implementations.

Mateusz
At all costs, only at a very early stage. Validation of these ideas.

Mateusz
And above all.

Mateusz
To all.

Mateusz
As if i.

Mateusz
What I think is most important in such a life or development of a startup idea. Because we also mean like a startup is something more or less innovative.

Mateusz
And this.

Mateusz
What is most important is that this contact with the final customer in. Fly to a minimum. One wants to verify our assumptions as soon as possible. Our seems to me either customers will love it, or customers are ready for it. Well, and some start-ups Have someone to talk to, to just verify these assumptions of theirs, to investigate whether this problem, whether this need exists, or if they even already know that it exists, how it manifests itself, what are the financial or non-financial consequences of the fact that this problem is not solved further, somewhere some industries.

Mateusz
Which work either.

Mateusz
They are just doing it on the principle of urging people to maybe not necessarily build their solution in full swing right away.

Mateusz
I.

Mateusz
It's still such a fickle, it's still such a fickle, the subject of which one more fickle will already be great and achieved.

Kamil
Once we start building this software, we even want to give something, because all the time we think something is missing in it. But it is.

Mateusz
Cost-effective.

Kamil
That's the only thing I think Ben Horowitz said, I don't remember exactly, that if you released a product and everybody liked it, that means you released it too late.

Mateusz
Well, exactly, too late. Exactly, too late. And I'm helping startups here to find ways so that they don't necessarily have to, for example, invest now hundreds of thousands of zlotys or tens of thousands of zlotys, depending on how complicated the solution is, the soft or building simply that final solution. Just just even No code is a great tool and a great trend that allows you to just validate the idea, the very idea, not necessarily the problem or the need. As if reducing very much.

Mateusz
Time and cost.

Mateusz
Related just to this validation. That is, today we don't really need to.

Mateusz
Build as if.

Mateusz
Super complicated, complex solution, only we can just this smallest part, such one function of the most important to be realized in such a less, less maybe target, final way, but checking that indeed this our solution firstly works, and after.

Mateusz
Second.

Mateusz
Whether customers are interested in it and whether they are able to pay. Well, that's also how we learn.

Mateusz
Better and faster.

Mateusz
Like what to build next, or how to build it in such a direction, so that it best meets the needs of customers.

Mateusz
Well, because I also sometimes.

Mateusz
Sometimes I ask this question, once I see that this, that startup, or that team is going like this. Well, We want to build, we want to build. Well, and so I ask them do you want to build the idea that you have in your head? Do you want to make a business? Because those are sometimes two different things.

Kamil
These are always two completely different things.

Mateusz
On two different things.

Kamil
Yes, even just recently at our place we had such an example. A client came to us with a defined idea, because he already knows what he wants to do, and he says There's no point in us discussing it, and we know exactly what we need. We didn't build it. The project lasted two months with a hook, so still very short, well, because it's great. OK, so I'm saying faster, the project almost two months with a hook, well, because it was also a platform, which there were already fiches, it was supposed to look nice, because there was also a client who had his clients. Well, and guess what turned out at the very end? Well, maybe.

Mateusz
It doesn't.

Mateusz
Users, no one is buying.

Mateusz
Or.

Kamil
Yes exactly. Listen, it turned out that three-quarters of the features that this platform had were completely useless throwing them in the trash, because it turned out that customers totally didn't expect that, they just needed something else. A little bit in another direction. Well, and it had to be built from scratch. The client said that this was his most expensive business lesson he had ever had. Well, because to build something and then even immediately just throw it in the garbage. Well, that must indeed hurt. Well, here I would like to ask one question. Well, because theoretically everyone knows that validating or checking ideas makes sense. Theoretically. But why do we de facto have to go for it, that we reduce the risk? OK, but are there any additional aspects behind it?

Mateusz
Of course, we can go back to that example that Kamil mentioned, because it is. I think people just think to themselves that this is the most expensive, as he said to me, he could have quoted that quote, that this was the most expensive lesson, yes.

Kamil
Like the most expensive lesson.

Mateusz
The most expensive lesson.

Mateusz
Business. Well, let him imagine.

Mateusz
What if.

Mateusz
They didn't build it in code, they would build it.

Mateusz
They would take.

Mateusz
Yes, they would take a loan, for example.

Mateusz
Or.

Mateusz
Subsidies or whatever, or they would have an investor.

Mateusz
And they would pay.

Mateusz
Hundreds of thousands of zlotys into building something.

Mateusz
And don't.

Mateusz
God it would take not two months, but I suspect it would take much, much more.

Mateusz
Every six months or so.

Mateusz
No. I also look at how we operate, how the programmers operate, like really doing things from the very beginning is turbo time consuming, so I suspect it would be a year probably, because in a way.

Kamil
In addition to programming also that Design, rethinking as for me this environment still.

Mateusz
So actually a sincere question.

Mateusz
Does he.

Mateusz
As if this was the most expensive lesson, it was just the cheapest way to verify it to him.

Mateusz
The idea.

Mateusz
Compared to those costs that he could lose actually Thinking as if in such a standard way. Well, and just as we talk about this validation, well, in my opinion, the validation of ideas is such an insurance.

Mateusz
It's me.

Mateusz
Się this startup paid for the insurance of the fact that if he had built, in a different way, such.

Mateusz
You already know.

Mateusz
Strongly into such as if scientific tools perhaps do not have. Like it wouldn't be built from the ground up, right? Then pay insurance that if it didn't work out, it would lose much, much more. I that.

Mateusz
I call that validation of ideas is a safeguard.

Mateusz
How do you buy insurance for yourself there rating.

Mateusz
Then you pay as if.

Mateusz
Annual.

Mateusz
Contribution. Yes, but how to.

Mateusz
Stands an accident I suppose just no one will buy and in general will have to throw away half of the functionality, well I paid this insurance and have peace of mind.

Mateusz
You did not incur these costs.

Kamil
That's not how it is. It is not a financial tragedy. Still to another to lose half a million or a million. It's different to lose 100 or 200 thousand.

Mateusz
Well, exactly. So for me, that's exactly it.

Mateusz
Validation of ideas is a benefit. It's like insurance, yes, I'm getting it this way this way. That is, we are lowering this risk here by incurring costs more or less.

Mateusz
Because those are kind of what we're saying.

Mateusz
Here strictly about finances, but also you have to count, for example, the cost not financial, but time, because, for example, conducting I don't know, interviews or some research.

Mateusz
Z.

Mateusz
Users, to get to know their world better, to find out what their needs are, or those assumptions we make about what they have.

Mateusz
Indeed.

Mateusz
Needs, where this problem manifests itself, which we want to solve. Well that is also an investment, but a time investment, well because you have to recruit them, well because you have to talk to them. So it doesn't take a week either, it can take more time depending on who that user is.

Mateusz
It is and.

Mateusz
Where it is in the world. But it's also a kind of insurance that actually when it comes out to us that this problem is painful enough that people are willing to pay for it, or the existing alternatives, for example, are doing great, well it just might be worth rethinking whether this is really the idea, whether this is an idea worth building or whether this is a problem worth solving. Well, so it's kind of a bit of a cost effect. Maybe it's not a sunk cost effect, but just how utopian these big investments already are, it's also hard for us to give up, from this solution we will push just there more fiches.

Mateusz
Yes, and it's a trap.

Mateusz
Yes, and eventually the investor's money will run out. Eventually, our bank will eventually come to pay us back that loan. And. Topical, however, they are. They are the power of so to speak. Such concrete that drags us in this river of costs.

Mateusz
And validation just something.

Kamil
It hurts me a lot more. Because it's a little bit like if we just sunk such a big investment, on which we also spent just de facto so much time just building, then we dragged it out indefinitely, because, gee, we've already spent so much, and in the end it turned out to be a failure. This can also just carry a very big opportunity cost in terms of, for example, mental health.

Mateusz
No no.

Mateusz
Exactly as if we don't realize it. And just testing.

Mateusz
Ideas.

Mateusz
And the skillfulness of it, doing it, knowing the different techniques, tools, because it doesn't mean that just kind of like testing or needs research is not going to the customer says what are your needs? Oh, such well, then I will satisfy them. It's just that sometimes it's also with me something of this psychological approach. Sometimes some people sort of can't articulate their needs or problems.

Mateusz
Yes.

Mateusz
Or not. Or, for example, it is also not a query here I have such a product, he has such features.

Mateusz
Would you buy or would you buy? Well that's not the best way from friends, is it?

Kamil
Where every friend will always tell us that it is a great idea to get to know him.

Mateusz
Exactly Right.

Mateusz
Exactly so. So here you also have to keep in mind that this is talking about testing, about validating ideas, while you also have to do it skillfully.

Mateusz
Well, and if it's about in general.

Mateusz
About pursuing ideas, well we have these three key categories of hypotheses, I guess, assumptions that we always make for ourselves in business, So the first hypothesis is, is this market that we're operating in, is it a growing market, are there more and more customers coming in, is there any, is there any space being created? Yes, it is. That's the first thing, because I don't know, now it would probably be pointless to do, I don't know, open a Tannery chain like this, for example, if we see that it's something that's just, and trend-wise and consumer-wise it's also legally kind of reeling. The second, the second thing is whether this problem that we are trying to solve, well because we create a business, often it's also startups, they forget that when you want to build a startup, you just create a business, it's a business like any other, just a little different, different laws. In the sense perhaps that it is.

Mateusz
Something.

Mateusz
Based on technology, something that can somehow be scaled up fairly quickly, while it's the same business premise all the time, which is that we need to solve a real user problem for which they will be able to.

Mateusz
Pay as you go.

Mateusz
Not money, it's data or some other other value. So it's important that we identify the problem and confirm it, so to what extent it's an existing problem and to what extent it's also a painful problem, because there's also this cool statistic, you can find yourself the most common causes of failure of startups it's a no market site.

Mateusz
That is, there is no such need in the market.

Mateusz
I, in general, once wanted to do such a study. I don't know, I don't know how to get to such data, but check, check how many downloads, how many percent of apps have downloads only by their own developers on those.

Mateusz
Stores, and the AppStore or there on Google Play

Mateusz
And so on, what isn't? How many percentages only are taken by their creators or employees? Well, and also the last last hypothesis, and that too is not an accident. It's not a coincidence that this is the last category of hypotheses, is this value proposition coming from our solution and this whole solution of ours really solving the problem and customers are willing to pay for it? And see this is only the third test. This order matters, because sometimes someone has an idea and it's not worth entering that market at all for various reasons. Then, once we know that this is a good market, well, does this problem exist? And only then can we think about a solution, wonder if indeed this idea of ours is.

Mateusz
Most.

Mateusz
Adequate, or whether the timing is good. So see that also talking about the solution is practically at the very end. And often we just have.

Mateusz
So that we have.

Mateusz
The idea and this is the first stage.

Mateusz
Yes, we know.

Kamil
But it's this whole process that I also think, whether it's going to be Design Thinking, or Lean methodology, or whatever, I think this whole process is just mainly also carrying the benefit that we get to know our own customer very well, this person we're going to be de facto serving, as well as getting to know the product we're building for that person very well. And how we work with a lot of companies, with a lot of founders, with a lot of mature organizations is a problem that comes up a lot. As long as it's not just a tool for some internal processes, it's a tool that the company wants to enter some market with, It's very much a problem of often not knowing de facto to whom. As for the added value of this product, because it is very pure. It's hard to define, because we think that when we build a product or provide some service, after all, this is the kind of service that will go to everyone. Well, you know, at the very beginning of this nobody, like almost 2 years ago we started a company just a software company, well we thought that too.

Kamil
Gee, everyone is also doing a great service for anyone who doesn't give credence. After all, now everyone benefits, not just me. It doesn't look that way. You always need to know somehow this person of yours. And I think it is all these processes that also de facto help us in this.

Mateusz
Yes, because they are sort of.

Mateusz
We can have, we can be turbo entrepreneurs from birth and have an intuition for what people need, or have that ability. On the other hand, well, we are not all born entrepreneurs, but more people have aspirations than certain skills. That's why I myself don't come from a family that has some long entrepreneurial traditions, on the contrary. So well I just this entrepreneurship in me. On top of that, I have always had some kind of passion simply by reading books.

Mateusz
I.

Mateusz
It was born in me. On the other hand, kind of like skills.

Mateusz
Zero.

Mateusz
So I tried all sorts of different ideas that were just hopeless. On the other hand, how I came across Design Thinking itself.

Mateusz
It turned out that.

Mateusz
You don't at all have to have the best idea in the world right away. Secondly, that more important is precisely the problem worth solving.

Mateusz
And finding it is.

Mateusz
The key, in fact the basis for doing such a business. And third yet you don't have to build the final solution right away, you just can. This prototyping is one of the stages of Design Thinking.

Mateusz
It goes on.

Mateusz
It turned out that I could actually experiment quickly, cheaply with what idea.

Mateusz
I'll throw in.

Mateusz
So saying.

Mateusz
Jargon.

Mateusz
And that's what Design Thinking is for. It's not these Lean startup methods, because they kind of have.

Mateusz
Three, in fact.

Mateusz
All of these methods and all of these, all of the ones we mention, which are customer development, startup Design Thinking, service Design. They actually have three key assumptions, just slightly different ways of achieving those assumptions. The first assumption is, find a problem worth solving, which is what I'm already repeating. Sure, but there it is. This is really very, very important.

Mateusz
And the key.

Mateusz
For success. Third, prototype, that is, until you know what you want your solution to be and how best to solve the problem, well, just don't build the solution, prototype it.

Mateusz
I.

Mateusz
Test with users.

Mateusz
Then there's the third.

Mateusz
The thing is this third thing. This is the customer contact thing. That is, at each of these stages you should validate sort of clash your assumptions with the customer, whether it's about the idea, or the market, or the problems, or the needs, or the marketing messages. After all, too, all Facebook marketing is based on a, b tests, and you test different messages because you don't know which one will hit.

Mateusz
As if I won't.

Kamil
Yes, it is necessary to iterate all the time

Mateusz
Operate in iterations

Mateusz
Iterability, yes exactly. I think that's the word I missed here. So to summarize, that is just the client, the prototype, the iterations. And it's such a loop all the time, and each of these methods tells you a little differently how to do it, but de facto.

Mateusz
Idea.

Mateusz
It aims at precisely these three, three things. Well, in fact, Design Thinking is probably the most versatile of all these methods, and I guess that's also why it has gained so much popularity. Well, because you can apply this method to different industries, to different situations. The list is more focused on building just such digital products. Service Design as the name suggests more to services. Yes Customer development. There is already such a methodology for building a startup in general, where lean startup is a part of this methodology in general, so they all really boil down to these three things, just give a slightly different kind of approach tools.

Mateusz
And they are used in other contexts.

Kamil
OK, great Matthew, tell me in that case, well, because now we were talking like this, of course, everyone theoretically realizes that they should do this, that this is for small and medium, large companies, regardless of size. We should always try to at least satisfy, to give at some minimum if the idea makes any sense. But then why do so few people do it? Because it still seems to me that few companies and few just such solo entrepreneurs who are just starting out are doing it. Despite the fact that everyone is theoretically aware of it. Let's start by checking.

Mateusz
You asked a question that I don't know the answer to.

Mateusz
I completely don't know.

Mateusz
Where it comes from. You know what, maybe that's the interesting thing, also to investigate why?

Mateusz
Because I do.

Mateusz
Before I even started anything business major, I was already familiar with this method, and it was quite natural for me to test and check and test certain things only, and sometimes to test at all with the client's money. This is also such a case. On the other hand, it seems to me that here is probably such a most important, what? I think it's such a fear that this world we have created for ourselves, these assumptions of ours can collapse.

Mateusz
Yes, and probably this.

Mateusz
There is one.

Mateusz
Most.

Mateusz
The difficult thing about all this is that we dismiss this moment of verification only to still live all the time in this belief that this is the best.

Mateusz
Life idea.

Mateusz
Yes, in this realm of dreams and this verification is simply to dismiss this moment. I want to find some kind of analogy, but I guess it's that kind of fear of that kind of cognitive dissonance, so that we.

Kamil
So very often we simply reject something from ourselves, where we have somewhere in the back of our minds a subconscious intuition tells us that it may not make sense, we do not verify it, we just follow our dreams.

Mateusz
It seems to me that.

Mateusz
Once that realization in the back of your mind is there, it's even already a stepping stone to success. In the sense of actually letting it go. Worse, when there is no such thought at all, then we really go blindly and it's hard even then for such a person. Well, because I kind of worked a lot with startups and they were different different people and sometimes I had to really use very different arguments to maybe.

Mateusz
Some of the things they checked.

Mateusz
So even this awareness in the back of one's mind even already may be there. If someone sees that it can be done, then they can do it. On the other hand, it is the lack of this awareness and such.

Mateusz
Rushing.

Mateusz
Just zooming out, well it's kind of like that. It can.

Mateusz
It's a bit like with.

Mateusz
Putting off seeing a doctor, yes at the dentist hurts.

Mateusz
How it is needed. And.

Mateusz
Well, and we just dismiss it as quickly as possible. Unpleasant, but we know we need it. And it's just such a battle with ourselves, internally. So we just prefer to live in this realm of dreams, in this realm of just that on paper everything agrees, that we have made a business model for ourselves, and after all we did. Business Model Canvas is, after all, everything has to go right. And that's where everything comes together. Except that, well, we forget that this business model is one long list of hypotheses.

Mateusz
Which they may not have.

Kamil
As a theory.

Mateusz
Relationship to reality. Yes, the theory. Well, and I also happen to be a physicist by training.

Mateusz
Well it's kind of about, maybe it's also, maybe it's also illustrating, Yes, but.

Mateusz
Just like any theory.

Mateusz
One has a lot.

Mateusz
Herself. Theorizing is true, whereas.

Mateusz
One must.

Mateusz
About this remember that any theory, even the most beautiful, if you find one experiment that disproves it, well, it's garbage. And many times it has been so in history, even though there was also such an experiment, there was some laboratory in Italy that.

Mateusz
It did.

Mateusz
The research, well it turned out. Well, and the research sort of disproves Einstein's theory of relativity, and they published it, and sort of already so thrilled that, gee, some new creates new physics, new foundations for new theories. Well, and it turned out that it was a measurement error.

Mateusz
Someone there.

Mateusz
Very, very, very sensitive experiments there measuring some particles, velocities and the like, that they had greater speed than the speed of light. Well, and it turned out. And just something like not checking it and letting sort of out into the world such results and such a theory, well it made it there.

Mateusz
There were some.

Mateusz
The mockery of these scientists.

Mateusz
That they approached so much.

Kamil
To his discredit.

Mateusz
So that they didn't check that they sort of didn't go through all this methodological apparatus, they were just so fascinated by these results that they just stated that they would publish them, that here they created new physics. So.

Mateusz
Perhaps these.

Kamil
Analogies to startups.

Mateusz
You can.

Mateusz
I often cite just though any physical experiment can be wrapped up as if in the frame of, for example, such a starter experiment a little bit. That is, precisely that we have a hypothesis. Now let's find a way to verify that hypothesis. Only in the startup world it's much simpler, because you don't have to build gas pedals behind.

Mateusz
Billions of dollars underground. Yes, and you can.

Mateusz
It is simply easier and faster, cheaper to give these experiments wali. On the other hand, the whole methodology is so very much in line with such methodology, you can say, scientific. And I also put such a hypothesis or such a study, why? Why doctoral students.

Mateusz
Scientists are not.

Mateusz
The best start up sheep? After all, this is actually experimenting just a little bit with a different matter.

Mateusz
So with them.

Kamil
I don't have an answer.

Mateusz
And well, going back. Coming back. Well, that's right. So I think probably that's the kind of aversion to seeing what reality is. That kind of fear that these visions of ours might not work out.

Kamil
Super. Listen Matthew, because here what? I'm going to ask you a question who exactly should be doing this? Here it is such an example of a pizzeria versus a generator. The drug hit in the meta version. We very interesting. As I read this it intrigued me. What does a pizzeria just have in common with an ad generator?

Mateusz
Okay, this is such an example, well, because we are talking heavily about validation here, who should validate it.

Mateusz
Do I.

Mateusz
The size of the company probably doesn't matter. It matters more what kind of idea we have somewhere in our heads or on paper, whether the presentation can be some kind of build up. Because if we wanted to open a pizzeria in a city of thirty thousand, well, does it make sense? It is enough to really check how many pizzerias there are, how many residents we have, where such a possible pizzeria would be best to open and whether there are premises to rent.

Mateusz
Which would meet the conditions.

Mateusz
And it's not rocket science. There are already a lot of pizzerias. As if a franchise can open its own, as if it's so business already well known and the need is already so good.

Mateusz
As if checked.

Mateusz
That people.

Mateusz
Yes, yes, that people.

Mateusz
It's already such a well-known idea that really if someone wants to open a pizzeria and do it well, well, it's kind of already known what needs to be done, what the needs are, people eat.

Mateusz
Pizza and sure.

Mateusz
They will be.

Mateusz
Eating.

Mateusz
So it doesn't kind of require all those methods, in my opinion, those startups, that is accounting, well because it's actually quite simple, I'm simplifying it now like that. On the other hand, when we're just talking about startups or someone software, or we're talking about some new products, services that aren't on the market, or there are still very few of them, or there are some, I don't know, some trends, at least meta versions, for example.

Mateusz
EJ.

Mateusz
Well, if someone comes up with an ad generator, that is, now we have all kinds of tools that allow us. We type in ourselves.

Mateusz
There.

Mateusz
What our product, some key features it spits out for us and graphics and text of the ad that we can paste to us on Facebook. Yes. On the other hand, if we came up with such an idea that we create such a generator, but ads with the use of this only in the meta verse, well, you have to approach it like a pizzeria, only to approach it in a slightly different way. First of all, just check the market, that is, this hypothesis about the market, whether this market is already there now as if. Where is this market even? Because sometimes people say, where is the metaverse

Mateusz
How to enter it?

Mateusz
I also wonder, but how was to do such an idea suppose Maybe someone, maybe someone will pick up. Well I would think first of all just where are the metavers? How many people already these metaversie are active, what kind of, what kind of players are there, Are there any advertising spaces already there? So I would check first of all the market. That is the first thing. If I would already see some potential there, well then I can move on to the next hypothesis, which is whether a problem exists.

Mateusz
That is.

Mateusz
The main issue here would probably be whether there are advertisers willing to advertise in meta verse.

Mateusz
I.

Mateusz
We can. We can also, on the one hand, say well, yes, they are willing, well, because there Nike or some such global companies have already tried to do something, so we can assume on that basis that indeed it could be. Well, but what about smaller companies? Or with ones that are not precisely from the front pages of the newspapers?

Mateusz
Would they be.

Kamil
Interested in such large companies to do so when on.

Mateusz
Example e.g..so here we also define for ourselves who is this target customer of ours, whether we want to do just that.

Mateusz
It's for.

Mateusz
Layman, who basically probably has a whole department of his own that can do this, and on the other hand maybe just some smaller companies that can't afford departments, copy writers, graphic designers, etc., but would like to make a name for themselves in this meta verse. So it's worth hitting up such companies, asking what problems the current systems are causing

Mateusz
Advertising Google Ads, Facebook, some.

Mateusz
Other spaces, advertising spaces. Reflect on how, how much it is and they are. No more.

Mateusz
I know.

Mateusz
This adoption of this technology is already something with them, something clear, obvious, that they pay attention to.

Mateusz
Attention and only.

Mateusz
Then think ok, then what solution could we offer them here? What does it mean to advertise in the meta verses where? Probably the first questions would be.

Mateusz
Today about them appeared.

Mateusz
So this has already had to be approached in a less obvious way than the pizzeria. And there are many, many, many more unknowns.

Mateusz
Than with.

Mateusz
Such a pizzeria.

Mateusz
And that's why.

Mateusz
I am less inclined to know who should use Design thinking

Mateusz
What companies, and more so.

Mateusz
What kind of idea do we have? This is an idea that we just do copy paste. Because it has worked well for years and we just see a space in the market under the title there is no pizzeria in this city and it is worth it. Maybe there is one.

Mateusz
There we will.

Kamil
Some.

Mateusz
And yes, because she shut down. Although it's also worth investigating why she shut down.

Kamil
And who is it? Yes.

Mateusz
But, but what?

Mateusz
And what's different is how we have an ad generator using archive meta verses where we know virtually nothing. This is all still very much in the early stages.

Kamil
So some hypothesis could be published, that we know that advertising gets monetized, that in a great many places on the Internet advertising gets monetized, that there are some people in the meta verse, but we don't actually know how many of those people are there anymore. That's how ads in general can be placed so on.

Mateusz
What are the problems there with these ads, for example? Because it might not be enough to display just text and graphics. Maybe you need to create, I don't know, 3D video banners combined with something there, some kind of interactive advertising. So even just exploring what kind of, what kind of, what kind of content, what kind of ad format should be there, because it's going to be different from what we know so far. Well it probably won't be just graphics and text, but maybe some other way in general that we don't know yet. And we're going to explore that, test it, see how and what formats people respond most to. Because now we know that real life, short forms, text, graphics, video, while meta verses.

Mateusz
And who knows where.

Kamil
But let me tell you, it's a very interesting idea. Maybe it just gave someone an idea to start some.

Mateusz
Well, that's if anyone wants it.

Mateusz
To take advantage is one zloty plus VAT. That's how much the ideas are worth, then you're invited.

Kamil
Super Matthew then I would like to get to the point just now a little bit, because here we still have a lot of topics to discuss, but I would like us to tell our listeners just what this Design Thinking is de facto.

Mateusz
Well, so in a big, very big nutshell, Design Thinking is a method of creating products, services or seeking innovation. The goal here can.

Mateusz
Be.

Mateusz
As for the purpose of this method, well, it really focuses heavily on the search for innovation.

Mateusz
And i.

Mateusz
Solutions in the form of.

Mateusz
Products or services.

Mateusz
Which such an overriding advantage or feature is that we do these, these innovations, services or products based on discovery. That is the first thing, and then a deep understanding of the needs of the audience, that is, those de facto to whom we are targeting this service. Well, and this is such a very simple, straightforward definition, which perhaps doesn't say anything yet. However, Design Thinking consists of such three elements. Well, if it is a method, well, it has such specific steps that we have to go through, it is a Process.

Mateusz
Composes.

Mateusz
They are made of tools, and at each of these stages different kinds of tools are used to maximize the effects of each of these stages. I'll tell you a little bit more in a moment, I'll tell you more. Well, and the third thing, probably the least appreciated, but in my opinion the most important. This is the mindset, the so-called mindset. And in fact from it he is the most crucial. Because no matter what tools we use, or how we go through this process, well, without it, basically, we can go all the way.

Mateusz
And also a bit like always.

Mateusz
This is also the analogy I give, that Design Thinking is like a hammer and chisel. In the sense that you can make a beautiful sculpture like Michelangelo, and you can also bang your head simply and hurt yourself. And that's exactly and this mindset is just to make sure that we don't hurt ourselves, but that we make really super products, services that customers will love us for and will still pay for it. And now let's take these stages. They are uncomplicated, you could say logical. The first is empathy, where we just very strongly just discover what they are, what these problems are, what these needs are. We also study the market there often, we confirm it to ourselves.

Mateusz
I.

Mateusz
In fact, here we use such tools as interviews, interviews with users, interviews with market experts. These are observations, right? Or, for example, we experience some of this user or customer perspective ourselves.

Kamil
Let me give a word here precisely because this is something that very many people, in my opinion, have a problem with. Namely. We know that we just need to research our potential customers. How do we reach them? Where are they?

Mateusz
How to reach them?

Kamil
OK, very interesting always a question. No, because we know we shouldn't ask friends, because it's not authoritative. Unless they are actually potential recipients, but that's also hard.

Mateusz
Don't.

Kamil
We give them an answer that will be 100 percent clear. So how could I, how could we reach these potential audiences?

Mateusz
OK.

Mateusz
To do research with them. Regardless of what form. Do you know what I do? There are several ways. The first, probably the most expensive one, is you can just outsource it to a recruitment agency that does such research, but that's very expensive.

Mateusz
Damn expensive.

Mateusz
But there are simpler ways.

Mateusz
I always.

Mateusz
I adhere to this principle friends.

Mateusz
Friends.

Mateusz
That is, as it were, these are the people we can indirectly reach through our friends. And for example, let's suppose I make such an application for AI ads, metaverse. Well, and Kamil, the question is do you have such a person in your circle of friends who, for example, advertises their business on Facebook or on the Internet?

Mateusz
So you probably have a question whether.

Mateusz
It's a question of would you give me, could you ask that person if they would be willing to talk to me for half.

Mateusz
Hours.

Mateusz
Remotely or by phone or face to face? And how do you just ask for their contact?

Kamil
I see you are already slowly planning this business?

Mateusz
Yes, that's what we're doing live now.

Mateusz
We do the Design Thinking process live, which is just friends of friends, so it's kind of just our networks. Yeah, it's, it's the easiest, the fastest, and even when I work with some teams, it's like, okay, well Bartek.

Mateusz
Peter and Michael.

Mateusz
We bid for three friends of friends who meet the criteria of belonging to our target group, fit this persona of ours. So.

Mateusz
Now.

Mateusz
Peter, Peter talks to friends of friends.

Mateusz
Cuba i.

Mateusz
Reverse. That's what we exchange. And this, and this works. In the sense it's very easy. It's also very easy then to get that recruitment quickly, and I've really done that a lot of times, even at some one-day workshops people.

Mateusz
They were able to.

Mateusz
Do those first, first preliminary interviews with real users, verifying your assumptions. Well, so that's one way of recruiting, the other one, which I also practiced, is just searching.

Mateusz
Such.

Mateusz
Persons.

Mateusz
On.

Mateusz
In various places on the web, where these people accumulate, whether on some Facebook groups, or some groups on some topic. So I was even just doing my course now, I wanted to downsize, which is a little bit of the course content-wise is relevant to this group of people, but the message is no longer. So kind of to find out what this group cares about the most and it was UX designers or my industry, well I just did that. I did a simple, straightforward survey, where, where I inquired.

Mateusz
People.

Mateusz
About what problems they have there with the facilitation of workshops, for example. And it was on the groups, on the groups just and text, on Facebook mainly, where also the reward or there such a thank you was the material.

Mateusz
Which I made available. So we are doing it so cold. Yes, I am listening.

Kamil
It is also worth somehow encouraging these people to want to take after all.

Mateusz
But we don't have to pay with money here, we can pay in ways. Or, for example, I often used chocolates as I had face to face meetings, as I had meetings.

Mateusz
Such remote.

Mateusz
It's just some kind of, I don't know 30 zloty voucher even, so that you can buy yourself a book or some e-book, some really small gift or even, or it could be even.

Mateusz
Some kind of discount or whether.

Mateusz
Or just really small things. People seem to think that all of those who are working at the moment, it seems that people just need to be paid no matter how much money, to make them talk, to give us this information such as this, because here it turns out that sometimes in general alone.

Mateusz
Yes, yes.

Mateusz
People like to talk. Anyway, podcasts are the best for that.

Mateusz
Evidence i.

Mateusz
They are happy to share. You know, their perspective, their experience, and they feel. And it's not even that they get anything out of it, just the feeling of being read as such an expert a little bit from their own personal experiences is already a lot, a lot. It's a reward of pleasure for these people to chime in on some service, product or problem.

Mateusz
Then again, so did I.

Mateusz
I'm like that, too.

Mateusz
I.

Mateusz
I benefit from seeing it this way now.

Mateusz
So this recruitment.

Mateusz
This recruitment is really not as difficult as it seems, isn't it?

Mateusz
Also in their materials or.

Mateusz
In training or in the course, I just show such really simple things and break down such myths that seem to be that now oh gee, I'm supposed to do 10 interviews? Where am I going to find these people? Gee, write to three friends.

Mateusz
And these three.

Mateusz
Friends have three friends and you already have nine people.

Mateusz
I.

Mateusz
A matter of just making an appointment with them. As it were, it's not as complicated as it seems.

Kamil
Yes, that's actually a good thing. So what? What? What's next? What's next?

Mateusz
OK, good. That's right. We want it, then we have that empathy.

Mateusz
Yes, we have these empaths, where we just talk to ourselves with those or observe them or experience what they experience. Because the best way to understand the other person is to experience the same thing as them. Just how do we do, for example, the solution of I don't know, for pregnant women? You and I would probably find it difficult to experience that. Yes?

Mateusz
But suppose it does.

Mateusz
Let's assume that we do. We are a company that produces some.

Mateusz
I don't know.

Mateusz
Devices.

Mateusz
Domestic. Either or.

Mateusz
Some furniture.

Mateusz
Which now.

Mateusz
I'm shooting yes with the idea. It's just about understanding this perspective that will help pregnant women who have a problem. I don't know, as if it's their body that weighs more than the usual motor problems. Well then, how can we experience what a pregnant woman? The question to you like the world? How can a guy experience what it's like to be in a pregnant woman's body?

Kamil
Gee, well I would probably go on the practical side and try to just simulate something for myself, glue maybe to myself, so that.

Mateusz
Well, precisely no. Exactly exactly exactly.

Kamil
Is on moving around on a daily basis, How much does it interfere with just daily activities? Well, because, however, the belly sticks out a little in front of us, that it is ugly to treat it that way, it can hinder us a little simply.

Mateusz
No no exactly, exactly.

Mateusz
And there are even some in birthing schools I've seen just such an experiment, where partners or fathers-to-be. It also has. Put a weight on some kind of pillow and to that pillow put some heavier stuff to simulate it. Well, and then try to go up to the second floor, tie your shoe. When we actually have in front of us sort of here this one.

Mateusz
Abdomen i.

Mateusz
See how it, for example, How it should, How it should look like, for example, I do not know, shoe cabinet for women.

Mateusz
Pregnant.

Mateusz
In some, I don't know, perhaps in.

Mateusz
Someone in some.

Mateusz
Maternity hospital or some clinic. Now yes. The point is that really this stepping into the shoes of the user, such a tangible one is not so difficult. In the sense we don't Design, it's possible.

Mateusz
I.

Mateusz
It is not as difficult as we think, as I gave an extreme example here.

Mateusz
But for example.

Mateusz
We Design something for the blind. Well, all you have to do is prescribe yourself a scarf, some kind of shawl or whatever, and tie it for yourself.

Mateusz
Eyes and.

Mateusz
Try, I do not know, try to go to the kitchen. Brew yourself a cup of coffee I do not suggest.

Mateusz
But we can.

Mateusz
This is an acreage risky, but I do not know. So get something out of the refrigerator. Well, it may already be easier. But we don't create that complicated. Of course, there are people who create. For such people there may be some extreme users. Whereas we have sometimes.

Mateusz
Easier.

Mateusz
Step into the shoes of our audience, because we can use our app ourselves, our store.

Mateusz
Recordings. Because if you don't.

Kamil
Very many services or applications, after all, where we can see what just doesn't work in them. And this is also one of the ideas I heard somewhere on the Internet recently about how to build a super sasa or super startup

Mateusz
Resolve your.

Mateusz
The problem.

Kamil
That's how I don't quite agree, because it still doesn't mean that there is a market or you know after.

Mateusz
Straight from another.

Mateusz
Individuals like a lot of similar people.

Kamil
This is firstly as I say there are similar people. Secondly, if we already have some proven solution under the title of, for example, Slack clicks, because we know that those products have some of their flaws, if we build an almost identical product plus those solved flaws, well, however, convincing users to leave that platform, the whole process, showing the world that we have this solution that is a little bit better than what you already know well, but now you have to migrate, switch, etc., and that's what we are doing.

Mateusz
Any cost of change. That's right, the cost.

Mateusz
Change is big.

Mateusz
Well, exactly. So and then after this one.

Mateusz
Empathy precisely, when we understand so well, sometimes.

Mateusz
Better, it's a bit about.

Mateusz
It is in this empathy to understand a person better than he understands himself.

Mateusz
This customer.

Mateusz
And Steve Jobs once said.

Mateusz
That not a role.

Mateusz
Customers is to know what they need, what they don't. Well, that's kind of what empathy is all about.

Mateusz
We need to do better. We also know.

Mateusz
That it's a bit of our role as creators, entrepreneurs to better understand users, customers, and provide them with solutions that they would never come up with on their own. And that too.

Mateusz
W.

Mateusz
This empathy is that we ask, what solution do you need? And also there is a quote probably from Henry Ford.

Mateusz
O.

Mateusz
Research that if he asked people what they needed, he would say.

Mateusz
Faster horses.

Mateusz
And it's also a pitfall, to make these interviews you also need to know how to conduct them.

Mateusz
To.

Mateusz
Just what do you need? I need a faster application. And then get then after.

Kamil
Simple in what aspect? Faster.

Mateusz
Exactly, more precisely. What and how much? The question needs to be. Is the application supposed to be faster, or is it just that we need to do this task faster, and we don't necessarily need to speed up the application, because you can.

Mateusz
Do something different.

Mateusz
So it's kind of like this is empathy, Then we have defining needs, so it's kind of analytical, where.

Mateusz
We.

Mateusz
All this material, all these notes, all the recordings, photos, all this material collected we just analyze, well, and we just make such an analysis for ourselves, what is the most crucial of our customer. Which of these needs are the ones that will give us, which satisfied us has the greatest advantage? Which of these needs are we actually able to satisfy? So this is the kind of analytical stage where we end up, de facto, this stage with some kind of Design challenge, that is, how we could Design. And here we end ourselves, how we could Design the most effective AI ad format, metaverse, knowing, for example, that users. Well, and here some insight, probably from research.

Mateusz
But such.

Mateusz
I didn't drive, so.

Mateusz
So I'm not going to think no and not yet. And then. And then we have this stage And this is the stage.

Mateusz
Empathy, defining needs. This is the stage where we should have a problem worth solving, worth solving for users. And also worth solving from a business point of view. And then we move to the next more creative phase, where we already have idea generation, prototyping and testing, that is, we come up with as many ideas as possible. We can apply different techniques here. How many techniques you know and which ones you like are the best.

Mateusz
So there they are.

Mateusz
Brainstorming. What are some methods? 6 3.5 How? Crazy eight, Walt Disney and so on and so forth. These techniques are simply there are thousands, so here.

Mateusz
Bottom line.

Mateusz
We choose those that are most helpful to us. We come up with these ideas, we do some preliminary analysis, of course, and what matters most is that we move on to prototyping. And now what: the prototype can be at different levels of sophistication.

Mateusz
And at such short workshops.

Mateusz
Whether in some such processes precisely where we will not. We don't have two months to build a scientific prototype or more advanced. Well, sometimes we make prototypes out of paper, just drawing individual screens. And that's something.

Mateusz
Which is indeed already the case.

Mateusz
Maybe someone. It may sound controversial, but you can also already test with users.

Kamil
I also believe in it. I've also heard of very interesting, I've heard. I've also read about very interesting methods of validating ideas, where we base it really on such very simple elements, where, for example, we just make forms in google form, and we still do all the work manually, well, because there's nothing about which we are able to do it manually yet. I just don't know exactly how to invest my time at first.

Mateusz
This is professionally called a protein interface.

Mateusz
That is, just a good name.

Mateusz
The protein interface, which is actually, on the front is, on the front is some form or some page, some landing page, and underneath we just sit manually, do our here hands, brains do, do this work.

Kamil
How does it sit, wrapped in silverware?

Mateusz
Yes, yes. Or, for example, I don't know. We create some new kind of machine and sit down and put ourselves or a colleague or friend in there. I spend the rest reading, I spend those.

Mateusz
Products.

Mateusz
Or whatever the machine is supposed to do. So it is probably the most.

Mateusz
Pictorial.

Kamil
An example of this efficiency, this scale and so on. We can just do it to test those very ideas.

Mateusz
Exactly so. Here it is prototyping, testing, as if this very stage of going from idea to prototyping, testing is the stage at which the company's start-ups are just taking off.

Mateusz
Probably most like this one.

Mateusz
It is difficult for them to understand.

Mateusz
Because from one.

Mateusz
The parties sort of all talk sort of about research, yes, because the user, meeting needs and so on they are, they are important as much as possible. And sitting for how many years in an industry, we already know these problems really. It's also hard to surprise us. On the other hand, with these ideas, it is often the case that ok idea, analysis is good, then now analysis from two angles 1 1 1. The criterion is cost. The second criterion is the second criterion is time. And now we take the idea that is the cheapest.

Mateusz
And the fastest.

Mateusz
To implement. Well, and we implement. And it turns out that sometimes maybe the most expensive idea that gets.

Mateusz
Don't.

Mateusz
We give ourselves a chance, for example, to take the most expensive idea and the most time-consuming one and, along the way, maybe look for some other, non-obvious way to implement it more cheaply.

Mateusz
And faster. Yes.

Mateusz
Because sometimes we just think so much, how to say so much shallowly. In the sense of.

Mateusz
Aha.

Mateusz
Application. This application is a year of development and expensive.

Mateusz
Yes, but you can't. It doesn't have to be an application.

Mateusz
Yes, but it does not have to be an application. The question is whether this way to meet the need.

Mateusz
It is would be.

Mateusz
Adequate.

Mateusz
I.

Mateusz
Let's look for some other way to implement this, for example, in some forum with some simple algorithm underneath.

Kamil
Do you agree? Because this is very often such a curse. I don't know if knowledge or, it's an inadequate name, but very often people think in such a way that if we have this list of ideas you say and they some are cheap to implement, others are expensive, then it occurs to us subconsciously right away that this most expensive idea is the best one and that we will potentially make the most money on it. And to no avail it is anyway, because someone once told me a very wise sentence that the best business idea is to produce something very cheap that everyone can afford and needs. No, it's not the most expensive, super complicated idea. You know, for example, bottle caps are not super complicated. And do you know how much water we drink a day? Or other drinks? And it's not a super idea, the kind of you know fashionable that you're going to walk around with I produce bottle caps, it's not going to be that super with it. And that's the way we often think too, I think we're looking for something like this that we can flaunt, brag about, talk about.

Kamil
But see how I came up with a super idea. No, but at the end of the day, I didn't necessarily give it those biggest just gains.

Mateusz
So I would these criteria here. I'm always trying to hint somewhere in there that it's first and foremost a criterion of how much this idea meets unique needs uniquely. I mean not necessarily some other weird, just unique under the title it does it ten times better than current solutions, in spite of as if it solves these problems or user needs. And the second way well where do we see the greatest potential for business? But not in context, not in terms of cost.

Mateusz
And and time.

Mateusz
Implementations, only in terms of the business model. Because maybe an application? It would be hard. Indeed, an app is expensive, and another app, download, etc. This is a big marketing cost, but it may turn out that we don't necessarily need to do an app. This could be the second stage, Once it turns out that this idea of ours actually solves the problem.

Mateusz
I.

Mateusz
Then let's look for it. OK, then how can we make it 10 times cheaper? Or not with an app, but just maybe some kind of plug-in.

Mateusz
Do.

Mateusz
Something simpler to satisfy a need?

Mateusz
And I don't know. For example, such an example.

Mateusz
Where the company that did the analysis of what are, what is the so-called traffic.

Mateusz
That is, like certain how many people.

Mateusz
At a particular location in the city.

Mateusz
Passes and.

Mateusz
He buys, this e.g..

Mateusz
She did.

Mateusz
In such a way that.

Mateusz
They walked

Mateusz
Under the ladybug.

Mateusz
From.

Kamil
Steels.

Mateusz
And they stood with the counter

Mateusz
Or they just took receipts from people and checked the transaction numbers. Yes, because that's where their receipt was simply. And which was the transaction of the day And that's how they measured it? And then ok, well that's not scalable. So then let's just make a simple, simplest application, where people will.

Mateusz
They could.

Mateusz
Take a picture of that receipt, post it on, upload the pictures and in return they get some £5 discount on something there or a coupon for something somewhere.

Mateusz
And it's just as if we were just that today.

Mateusz
Some sort of automation Such is that this solution to deliver these value propositions, these user value propositions is not necessarily the final one, as it were. That's also why we can do a separate brainstorm on how to do it in a different, simpler, better way, but satisfying this one. Like this value that comes from this original idea. So, as if here, here this prototyping, testing and also this idea generation is such a stage of Design Thinking, where there are three stages that make up this.

Mateusz
To find.

Mateusz
The best solution, the most and useful.

Mateusz
I.

Mateusz
Effective for business, too.

Kamil
Yes, but that's what's also great that you're talking about it, because that's something that I often notice, especially in Poland, because when we work with clients from the States, they very often already have. I don't know what it's due to, also to the end, but I've noticed that companies from the States are much more aware of the fact that what matters at the beginning is not that it's supposed to be beautiful and so on. It's supposed to solve a problem, how to solve a problem and it starts to bring money, then I'll think, because I'm just Thinking about making it Pretty, wrapped in a bow and so on.

Mateusz
Very precisely so.

Kamil
Very often we make this assumption that, moreover, we do different projects for startups or something. It's F&F or even mature companies that come out with this assumption. It has to be nice, it has to be functional, it has to be fast, and it still has to be in this technology, because we have such a whim, where de facto the end user or the business user totally doesn't care about that or what technology it's built in. If it works. Because if it works then no one totally cares. Now we are sitting at a miting go you or I are wondering and what is this file in? The miting was done total accurate, total no, so no. Also if it solved our problem of we have to call, record this conversation, would it make much sense? How does it matter, how does it look? Of course, it's better to click on something that looks nice, but at the beginning when that's what we're building these products we shouldn't totally focus on that.

Kamil
And in Poland I notice such an attachment. Do you also, if you are just working with different companies.

Mateusz
You know, it varies. I have a lot of that kind of attachment. It's in Allegro.

Mateusz
I do, at least that's how I see it, because I work among designers and.

Mateusz
And indeed.

Mateusz
This one.

Mateusz
Attention to appearance is high and.

Mateusz
And also speaking so generally, as in the telecom market, for example, yes, we have Playa, we have T-Mobile, Orange there.

Mateusz
Other.

Mateusz
So. What can they compete with More.

Mateusz
I don't look like that because they have.

Kamil
Run, then we are already talking about something with which they compete, where they are mature organizations. For example, the customer panel for my subscription, well, you know, there they will define, add, and so on. But if.

Mateusz
So very deep.

Mateusz
I will enter. It's just that the customer panel Aha, here I have everything easy, then I have everything from the input level, from this panel. So it's okay, I can pay the five zlotys more, but you know kind of everything from the customer panel. And indeed. In my opinion, it already matters when you already practically have nothing to compete with, because so everyone has phones for a zloty, everyone has subscriptions and unlimited there essays and so on, well then it matters. And it's also a little bit like that in e-commerce, that if you have low prices, a lot of choice, well the more you can compete with, you can compete like of course with some additional services. Yes, precisely those with the customer. However, in the case of your own, as you say, startups or ideas that are new to the market, or represent some such unique value, well it really matters less, because what really matters is whether it solves the problem. And such an example is very much so cool, then I'll send, then we'll make it available to the listeners here.

Mateusz
Very cool post on LinkedIn.

Mateusz
Who I don't even remember anymore, but just saying very emphatically how important this value is. So that you can click on that solution, that it is unintuitive. You can sometimes just get pissed off and flood that company there with some complaints and so on.

Mateusz
But if you use it.

Mateusz
But yes. Well that's right, but you benefit because it just has so much value that you'll just pass. That's right.

Mateusz
Maybe that would be a good thing.

Mateusz
To see how much this value from our product.

Mateusz
It is.

Mateusz
It is important for users just by making it difficult for them to achieve it.

Mateusz
First, barriers.

Mateusz
Let's put 3 barriers to the application or solution. For example, instead of plugging in the card, let's give them this number, let's just give them the transfer data. Or, for example, let's still, for example, have them call us and ask for it, because if they're going to do it, it means that the value is high enough that they're willing or desperate enough, as it were, to even call you. You know, give me a number, because I want to make a transfer, because I need this.

Mateusz
And this is the best situation.

Mateusz
The best confirmation that this value we found, or the problem we identified.

Mateusz
I.

Mateusz
This promise of a solution is big enough that people are willing to call simply.

Mateusz
I.

Mateusz
To ask you for the transfer details. Yes.

Kamil
So this is I would say an extreme example, but a great, very interesting, risky one. Let's mark this one to take off with something like this, but it would actually show. OK, I have a product that is going to conquer the market, because people are even sacrificing themselves to be able to use it.

Mateusz
And now you know, you say, you say risky, and I, for example, say not necessarily risky. If we decide that we're going to do it for a week, or let's do it, for example, on a sample of 100 customers and let's see just like that. Well, yes, testing, testing A, B or just on a smaller scale. Because also just coming back to this validation, to this risk, well different tests also have different cost, just as different execution time and here you can, you can combine. Well then, I guess still such.

Mateusz
Key.

Mateusz
The element where I think this is most emphasized is extreme collaboration, that is, if we are, for example, experts in the IT industry and here we have an analyst, the PM has a programmer, someone there, well we sit very much in our own sauce and. And often this innovation and this perspective simply puts us in contact with other people who have a different perspective, other experiences are from other industries, and many innovations have been created as a copy of some solution to our industry, such as recently Wizzair or some other airline introduced ticket subscriptions inspired simply by Netflix, some kind of cinema subscription packages.

Mateusz
And with that.

Mateusz
With this business model.

Kamil
A lot of car companies now making cars are just starting to introduce these subscriptions, because there is a lot of digitization coming out there, so they're just getting a handful from this world of digitization, where de facto all services or applications or features are just bought by subscription. It's the same thing that's starting to appear in cars now.

Mateusz
Exactly. So this, this extreme collaboration and inviting people to it for creative workshops or so I say for creative workshops or to. Further stages of Design Thinking, inviting people in general from the tip of the hat, in a sense from the tip of the hat in the sense that they are not related to our industry, can give us, against all odds, a lot more of just such breakthrough, innovative ideas than if we just sit all the time in our own industries, experiences and.

Mateusz
And many.

Mateusz
Times even. I also often ask which group will be more creative, will have less non-obvious, less obvious ideas, whether a group of, say, I don't know, 10 programmers, or, say, two programmers, a psychologist, I don't know, a kindergarten teacher, a cook and, say, two more sociologists. I suspect that this group, the other group will have.

Mateusz
More.

Mateusz
Non-obvious creative ideas, perhaps less so.

Mateusz
Her, less real.

Mateusz
But it's already sort of the task of sort of these problems to w.

Kamil
Bring to some common denominator even the smaller ones.

Mateusz
Or.

Mateusz
But it can inspire. Gee, I remember such an example, such an anecdote, somewhere just read, the tape also from the net, that there was a company, which power company in Canada had a problem with that.

Mateusz
There were lines.

Mateusz
The power lines were rotating, well, and there were simply failures. Yes, those lines didn't hold up under the pressure of that ice. There were stiff windmills, the wind blew, and the line just fell.

Mateusz
Well, and there was just a creative workshop.

Mateusz
Well, and the theater moderator asked that. Well, now let's look for some unrealistic idea. Well, and someone there. Well it would be best.

Mateusz
It was, if anything.

Mateusz
Some magic fairy flew in and with the help of this magic wand would.

Mateusz
Sort of.

Mateusz
She flew behind those lines, charmed those lines. Well, and such an idea is unrealistic. But someone came up with the idea of Chicken, and how about a helicopter.

Mateusz
Take i and.

Mateusz
From this and that helicopter? How would it drain such a substance, which is used to revive aircraft at airports, for example?

Mateusz
Yes.

Mateusz
This is already more realistic. It turned out to be such a hit-and-miss idea, well, because just a helicopter flew over the lines, this substance sprayed.

Mateusz
And so.

Mateusz
This is how this problem was solved. Suddenly the idea came from a fortune teller. And now the question if this idea had not come up, not realistic would he have come up with this idea? Well, who knows. Yes? Whereas my bet is rather they would not have come up, rather it would just go on. What should be done to make these lines? That rubber maybe some should be different.

Mateusz
Or.

Mateusz
Maybe there something to hang some elements on these lines, which would again generate a gigantic cost? And how do you think about thousands of kilometers of rubber, some specifics? Well that is a gigantic cost. Like a helicopter itself that will fly once a month or thereabouts once every couple of months.

Mateusz
And it sprays.

Mateusz
Substances, well the cost is probably.

Mateusz
Gigantically smaller. Super.

Mateusz
So extreme cooperation and unrealistic ideas are needed.

Kamil
Great! Then we already know what the process looks like here Design Thinking. But like any process, it's bound to have some drawbacks, too.

Mateusz
How not to. There are no defects, no flaws. It doesn't. Of course it has flaws.

Mateusz
As everything has two, there are two sides of the coin. Well, and this one, as you ask directly what to watch out for here, or what is so problematic? Well, exactly. Well, so probably such the biggest difficulty at the very beginning, because if someone is starting or there is some group of people of a team, a startup or a team in a company, well it is just that everything seems so logical. Well yes, let's research the need, let's ask what people need, and then let's give it to them. Well, yes, in theory this could be understood. On the other hand, well, technically it is also simple, because there we do not require some uncomplicated things. On the other hand, this mentality is a big obstacle here. As I mentioned earlier, doing a good interview requires just the right mindset. No, not asking, not fixating on your idea. If we want to really.

Kamil
Well here it is seriously in the interviews not to ask biased questions or questions such that the user also immediately declarative notes. For sure.

Mateusz
Absolutely.

Mateusz
Exactly so, that is, without questions. Generally when it comes to such interviews where you are supposed to confirm whether a problem exists. It's best not to ask if you have such a problem, just ask. Tell me about the last time you had a doubt or problem with something like this, for example. If someone says I haven't had one, it means they haven't had one like this. Because this is to recall a situation from the past, not to ask people declaratively if they have a problem with something. So here it is, that's the first thing. The second thing is actually what you said, yes, implying. And don't you think this is a big problem?

Kamil
Yes, with this right away, Necessarily.

Mateusz
Yes, it is.

Mateusz
This is a big problem. So then it's always worth asking an open-ended question like this. And what do you think about this problem? Or and how much is it for you? To what extent it is a problem for you or to what extent I don't even know. We can start with this on a scale from zero to 10. From zero it is. I don't care at all. 10 It's a problem that.

Mateusz
Mi.

Mateusz
Spending sleep. Where would you place this problem? Yes, if it occurs. So, yes, yes. So that's something to keep in mind. And these are. And these are turbo important things, and also turbo soft. There's nothing technical here. So that's one thing. The other thing is this extreme cooperation that I mentioned that.

Mateusz
She is.

Mateusz
Organizationally it's also difficult, because we have to meet, because we have to sort of arrange it all. So kind of like that going through this operational work, well that's it, it can be that difficult, Yes, this recruitment for interviews. I said that on the one hand it's easy, but if, for example, we operate in a specific industry, I don't know, we would like to do now a product, a service for judges, the kind who work in the courts.

Mateusz
It would be Andrew with confidence.

Mateusz
Recruit them.

Mateusz
To research because it.

Kamil
Event.

Mateusz
Yes, yes, not every one. Not everyone probably has a judge or surgeon friend, for example.

Mateusz
Or.

Mateusz
Aircraft pilot. Well, so there may be such difficulties as if related to a particular industry, for example, the insurance industry is also so strongly. E.g. how to test insurance? We can't do which door test or there to give someone, let's say, an offer and see if he would buy or not, because if he buys well then we must already have all the conditions, as if the whole mathematical apparatus under it. Well, so you have to look for some other ways to test as little as possible declaratively, whether such, what such insurance would make sense for whether people would be such insurance, so especially getting into the financial market testing financial services is problematic. Well, because if you can't do something like that.

Mateusz
Before selling e.g..

Mateusz
Pre-sale credit.

Mateusz
Selling insurance, right? Well, as I listen to the subscription, yes, then.

Mateusz
Subscriptions, so. Well, so there are some such limitations, how can we hit it in a particular, in a particular industry? There's also this second, second disadvantage.

Mateusz
That I think is probably the flaw in probably every.

Mateusz
Methods in fact, that people matter most.

Mateusz
I.

Mateusz
Our mistakes, our some heuristics, some just this kind of ego team stuff, our beliefs can just crybaby through this work. As Design Thinking is a very method. Of course, we associate this prototyping and testing stage with something so very technical-building something. On the other hand, a big part of this work is soft work, i.e. talking to people, experience, generating ideas, even testing is already softer too, because you just check. I don't know that if it's usability testing, here also meeting with another person, you just talk about a specific prototype. If we're testing something so, you know heavily technically under one landing page, we're checking conversion, well there we have little to discuss. It's the criteria of whether it works or not that's so objective. Whereas in many cases it's not so objective. So a lot of the big significance is simply ours. Our mind and how we use it. Our intuition and also this extreme cooperation here is not just about taking people from the top who can knock us out of this out-of-the-box Thinking.

Mateusz
But really, at this first stage, you might want to consult some sociologist or someone who knows about research so that.

Mateusz
No no no.

Mateusz
Check at least if we are asking the questions properly. Or at least make a list for ourselves, whether we really don't have there, we don't suggest something. Or set ourselves up accordingly. If we're talking about ideas, well, maybe it's worth taking some patient outsider so that he can guide this group of ours, so that we withhold criticism at the very beginning.

Mateusz
So.

Kamil
Matthew, you said about a super thing, because the next question I'd like to ask you is you're running a course, which we'll give a link to in the description of this podcast, so you'll be able to check out what exactly Matthew is offering in this course, what it's about, etc. On the other hand, just my question is if I would like to use this method to implement my idea, do I have to hire someone? Is this a methodology that I can also do? Use it solo?

Mateusz
You know what, and both. Or it also depends on which stages.

Mateusz
In general, you can completely use this method solo.

Mateusz
And I do it. I'm doing it.

Mateusz
In a way that I just don't know. When it comes to the needs of the students yes I talk to them, I make phone calls, I do some research, surveys, I analyze Facebook groups, I analyze.

Mateusz
Opinions on.

Mateusz
Surveys, training. I do it myself. As for ideas, I usually have more than I can even test and check.

Kamil
And that's probably all of us.

Mateusz
So just here, a.

Mateusz
Even.

Mateusz
And sometimes the students themselves give me ideas about what can be done, improved. And this is even in the context of not only the shape of the course itself or the product of the course, but also in terms of promotion in general. So there it is. It's mega interesting, so I'm talking strongly about myself here. So I, for example, did. I had the idea for this course, I knew what the needs of the students were and who this course is for. This course is for people who know this method to some small degree, at least on the basis of this podcast, and want to start using this method in a way that is maybe not professional too, that's also the goal I'm pursuing, but in a correct way to achieve those benefits we mentioned to ourselves earlier. So this is such a persona of just a student. If you are interested in this method, you see the value in it and you want to do it well, well this course is just for you, regardless of your industry, because also in this course I devote a whole module to the use of this method, well because it is quite universal to your conditions and you can do just that.

Mateusz
Or.

Mateusz
As a moderator, that means you can.

Mateusz
Lead for.

Mateusz
Other workshops, either lead your team in all this, or you can apply solo.

Mateusz
Like me.

Mateusz
That is, for example, at least.

Mateusz
How.

Mateusz
I had an idea for this course, then I did my research, then I did myself, I summarized this research in the form of such a simple, very, very simple persona, what a person has before, what a person has after the course, what his needs are. I juxtaposed this with the results of the surveys. On this basis I made an offer for this course.

Mateusz
And.

Mateusz
I didn't start recording it, I just did a pre-sale. In the sense I checked to see if there was really potential, because I knew the market was there, the potential was there, the online form was already something for.

Mateusz
People.

Mateusz
Obviously, so let's see if that's really the case, if there will be interest for this course of mine at that kind of price. So I just did a typical pre-sale.

Mateusz
Yes, and I sold this course and out.

Mateusz
It turned out to be, yes I just had a success criterion set in such a way that.

Mateusz
If.

Mateusz
Advertising costs will equal the revenue from this course in this pre-sale, then I do this course, because it simply means that they are, customers are buying. Whereas, well, pre-sales have turned out even better for me. In a sense. I had a profit already concrete, yes, and it gave me something to think about. Well now, how will I do it in three months? God, well.

Mateusz
I just had to. I was recording.

Mateusz
I just recorded practically every day some lesson or managed to deliver this course, well, and then it was just scaling, optimization.

Mateusz
And i.

Mateusz
This has been happening so far. And in general this year basically every, every window was a test of something new, for example, a test of solutions to make people stay until the end.

Mateusz
E.g. either.

Mateusz
A test of some new new advertising, or a test of just whether to target this course to some specific group and its specific, specific problems. That's what I did, too, based on research, based on experiments, too. Well, and what I did was I just did a webinar, which I addressed with this course, and I stressed in general content the needs identified just in such a survey to these UX designers. So it's possible to apply it solo, I do it. On the other hand, if you are just lacking, or you or anyone else who would like to use this method, just this support, this extreme collaboration, for example, you can invite, do, organize a session, brainstorming two hours online, a new invite people or maybe friends? No, but you just have friends also acct to generate ideas. Friends can be.

Mateusz
They can be cool, cool.

Kamil
Yes, because it will not be fraught with any such error. Exactly, the desire for such collegial help.

Mateusz
Yes, yes.

Mateusz
To motivate and give such a motivational kick. So you can invite your friends, people from your industry or outside your industry just for such an idea generation phase. You have, You want to make a prototype? Well, go ahead. Here Kamil can help you scientifically make something, maybe even a week.

Mateusz
Or even faster.

Mateusz
So it can be done solo, and at times when we need external support, we can dose it to ourselves in such a punctuated way. Yes, is it support or is it just in the form of a course? How to make such a prototype or I don't know. Anyway, also in this course is that it's not a course that we go through completely on our own, but also all the time students have access to this support. So you want to do a good interview, then just send me the interview questions. I'll give you feedback. Yes, that too.

Mateusz
That's how it works in this course.

Kamil
Well, that's what we were talking about, that these questions should not be biased in any way.

Mateusz
So here, as far as this particular course is concerned, well, well.

Mateusz
W.

Mateusz
Generally Design Thinking can be used solo, just be aware that maybe some things need to be consulted or invited. If you want to have more unique ideas, then maybe invite people from outside so to some short.

Mateusz
Session and give.

Mateusz
Im challenging. So yeah I in general am a fan of using Design Thinking solo because I think it's maybe not as turbo energetic as people you know, work with us together, but on the other hand you just depend only on.

Mateusz
Yourself and how to really push yourself

Mateusz
So greater efficiency. You can certain.

Mateusz
Things get done faster and.

Mateusz
I simply recommend it. On the other hand, No Design Thinking can also be in the role of trainer, facilitator, but also such a PM a project manager, who manages such a process, where simply the team performs, whether it is research, generates ideas, and we supervise this work and organizationally oversee it all.

Kamil
Super Matthew, then you have given us an example of just how this Design Thinking can be used solo do you allegro also use this methodology? Or any big companies at all too? Any examples? There are big companies that also use this metrology.

Mateusz
Yes, yes, if at all.

Mateusz
In general, I recommend. If anyone wants to.

Mateusz
See.

Mateusz
Such a case of giants, then just give yourself in Google's Design Thinking studies and there pops up and Google, Apple and.

Mateusz
All others.

Kamil
Giants of this world.

Mateusz
Using Yes.

Mateusz
And I think that kind of like the giants of this world are just really already on it.

Mateusz
So much.

Mateusz
That's why they are giants, because they do it.

Mateusz
In a sense, that is.

Mateusz
That is, just very.

Mateusz
Right.

Mateusz
They identify needs, this process of their creation, conceptual solution, creating a solution, I'm not talking about implementation, is also very extensive. At Allegro we have a whole product process, which is based on the fact that we study our users from different angles whether merchants or users, because we also have sellers, after all. So there we just study what practically every screen.

Mateusz
We have researched.

Mateusz
In terms of, in terms of usability. Are there any problems there, some things not understood. We also study a big, we give importance to also. Data analysis. Also, it's not only qualitative research, but also quantitative. With us, practically this research is happening all the time.

Mateusz
We can't even keep up with the repairs. And so.

Mateusz
And correcting. What's in it for you? I'm not saying it's a lot of mistakes and a lot of things to improve, well, but it's just kind of like the users are changing, the market is changing, we're introducing new solutions that also generate new, new, somewhere challenges, problems, So this process is happening all the time with us, and we're constantly improving, improving this marketplace of ours. And in the case of new services, well, we are really trying to use just this way of Thinking. How to make something fast and cheap to test the potential. And even here I have such an example also related to in AI, before the whole Chat GPT bubble burst, where we had an idea simply for a service. Here I can't talk too much about what kind, because it's holding me.

Mateusz
Here NDA and so on.

Mateusz
But I'll just stop there, let it be a simple service using big legends. Well, and to test it, whether it makes sense. Well, we did such a classic fight for test, that is, we created an offer.

Mateusz
And i.

Mateusz
We checked how many people and chat number was the chat service. Will be willing to leave their email to use the beta test. Yes. It may not have been the most authoritative test. A bit declarative, however, but it also gave us an idea of the scale of this demand or problem.

Kamil
Drawing or.

Mateusz
Any interest. What did it give us after that already? OK, then let's go one step further. Let's make ourselves, let's make an MVP. Such a single function one, that is. And also no. We did it in such a traditional corporate way. Where? Okay, then we take 5 now.

Mateusz
Developers year.

Mateusz
Six-month map.

Mateusz
Minimum i.

Mateusz
It is known how much it costs. Just are there any scientific tools with which we could do this and deliver this final value so that the Merchant has to get what he wants, what we offer him? Well, and we just used open here.

Mateusz
Zapier.

Mateusz
+ Google Forms the simplest, easiest API in the world. One, the only such innovative thing was simply the use and this prompt.

Mateusz
The most important thing is i.

Mateusz
You know, and we tested with the vendors and it turned out that some of these, some of these results, of this test, just appeared on the platform already with us. Mechanics started using it. So for us it was ok. Well then if there is this interest, if the merchants, those even some of them of course had at such an early stage we had two applications are merchant, those who are already using it and uploading their offers. So it gives us ok. It is firstly solves the problem, secondly it is good enough to actually have time those who use.

Mateusz
And there.

Mateusz
Where it doesn't.

Mateusz
It worked either.

Mateusz
It wasn't, somewhere they put it to you, we knew why.

Mateusz
Either something was not, or.

Mateusz
It was just that it was too short, or it was too long, or it was.

Mateusz
Some.

Mateusz
There, it either didn't meet such such needs, or it was a bit persuasive, or something else, something else.

Mateusz
Aha.

Mateusz
This we know that here in this category, in this category it works.

Mateusz
I.

Mateusz
Super. Here we have to improve this and that, and here we have to do something else, then we have to take care of that. So making a prototype that took.

Mateusz
Nam 5.

Mateusz
Hours gave us.

Mateusz
Like.

Mateusz
The information gave us. If we made an MVP in the classic form and let it go to market then we would get 100% feedback information.

Mateusz
And us doing something 5.

Mateusz
Hours for 45.

Mateusz
Dollars we had.

Mateusz
80% of this information.

Mateusz
So.

Mateusz
As if it's really a drastic cut, the cost of finding out something about how it should work, how it shouldn't work and what they expect. So. So that's where this process is key. It was kind of even exemplary, exemplary, because we first checked the need through just the reports that we already had in Allegro.

Mateusz
Done, through analysis.

Mateusz
We analyzed the group, by analyzing the group. Then we did a test of interest in the idea, on which also Merchant and us as they let us know if they wanted interested then they still confirmed the problems to us, because we asked them about it. And then we sort of did a solution test. Did it.

Mateusz
In general.

Mateusz
Somehow it works for.

Mateusz
Chats. And.

Mateusz
Now we are at a stage like this, where we have already entered this more corporate rhythm, where we now have to sort of.

Mateusz
Everything must.

Mateusz
Be security legal.

Mateusz
Well, yes.

Kamil
Because it's different from the current systems and so on. Exactly, a whole team of developers has to come in, but it's very interesting, because I know that we can't talk about the details, of course, how and what are the ideas there, the tools, what are the processes behind it, but I guess Allegro. You certainly use a great deal on. That's how much all that collected data allows you to do. Well, because the data on Allegro collects, as you said yourself, a lot through various studies of user behavior on its sites and so on. You certainly use a lot of tools that allow you to validate just these ideas quickly. Just this Design Thinking + No-code, for example, as it appears to me at this point. As we are talking now, you can see how such a super power couple will give us super powers and mega shorten the time to add this fit to the market.

Mateusz
And so in general when it comes to allegro we must remember that it is a corporation. Perhaps.

Mateusz
We have.

Mateusz
Still such associations with Allegro as just such a Polish company.

Mateusz
And takeoff.

Mateusz
Up. In contrast, we are a corporation where all these procedures are more expensive.

Kamil
Well here.

Mateusz
Exactly.

Mateusz
So yes, it's natural. It's the natural way that if it grows and we do business, we just have 14 million users.

Mateusz
I.

Mateusz
We enter new markets, then we can no longer act like a startup, but must already be more. The stock market, moreover, in our case, requires it, so by the same token we understand it. We understand So we have on the one hand very much time eats up the use of some external tools.

Mateusz
I.

Mateusz
Sometimes it may even be quicker to produce something yourself than to wait to check it. It's a solution from all angles of whether there's going to be a danger of data leakage, for example Well, because this is still in the era now of RODO and all these omnibuses and these directives. This is something that we have to pay strong, strong attention to.

Mateusz
And this.

Mateusz
We are affected. And in our country any such leakage would not be simply it would take place on the stock market simply as if this risk in us. That scale of risk. Or in other words, maybe what, we have a lot to lose? Oh, in that sense yes. We have so many users that a leak at our place is not that two people can leak, two email addresses, I don't know how in my case, my course.

Mateusz
Or 3 or even let it be.

Mateusz
10 Just when something is leaking, it's a lot.

Mateusz
It leaks like this usually. Although I.

Mateusz
I do not remember the specific casu, but simply this one.

Mateusz
This one.

Mateusz
This risk is simply small.

Mateusz
But there it is.

Mateusz
This loss is so large that this expected value.

Mateusz
So how does a guest po.

Mateusz
Straight from this angle is, it is very large. So we, for example.

Mateusz
We have two.

Mateusz
Such places in Allegro, where we have specific scientific tools created for our own.

Mateusz
Needs.

Mateusz
And this is a tool for creating pages in the sense of landing pages, such dedicated pages. And the other tool is for creating such small versions of applications.

Mateusz
Yes.

Mateusz
And it's acutely it's not no cod, maybe more low cod, that's what I would call it, because we actually need programmers, but we also see that some things we don't want to keep, just in the hands of programmers. Let them really do the kind of work that requires creativity and things that are so non-obvious, where actually a programmer is able to do it. And the need for it here.

Mateusz
Exactly.

Mateusz
That creativity I mentioned. On the other hand, where indeed these tasks are so repetitive, where the programmer would simply get bored, well, maybe it's better to create just some kind of scientific or other solution, so that, to optimize it and so that everyone can just quickly click on certain things.

Mateusz
Yes?

Kamil
But it's great what you're talking about, because it's also a topic we talked about some time ago. Exactly this kind of domain no coder or Citizen Developer, which means that we give the power to people from different departments just something from the HR department or from the marketing department, also from the logistics department or from any other department. We teach them the tools, because you have these things in these departments. And like these people not who want to, who have these skils and who first of all know the problems of their department of developers and we throw out any request to make a tool, he has no idea about that particular problem. He knows how to build a given tool, but in order to build it, he has to understand it first. So we already know what power is, because what else are our thoughts, emotions, etc.? But to communicate them to someone else, so that he understands it and so on, that's again another barrier. And this is where Allegro comes out as, by the way, more and more companies do.

Kamil
I understand from the fact that you give these tools further to the users of the so-called typical programmers, so that they themselves build some solution for themselves, for example, or show that something works, and only then we will go possibly to the programmers, because also then we will in some way visualize it and it will be easier for these programmers to say what de facto we expect.

Mateusz
Yes, exactly.

Mateusz
Generally when it comes to.

Mateusz
O.

Mateusz
This product process of ours, where there are designers, we use Design tools, where we don't just have mockups under the title of screen 1.2.3. Only we are able to create anymore.

Mateusz
Clickable.

Mateusz
Mockups. And it is already a norm for us that.

Mateusz
How.

Mateusz
We do usability testing is we don't do usability testing on production where it's coded just still on packages we add it where we hand it over. As if this experience is one thing. The other thing is that we also have teams or PMs who involve programmers at the stage, at the stage of conceptualization, generating, as it were, of the solution, so that the programmers, first of all, give their own, give their perspective, just such a technical perspective, also talk about the limitations that are, or problems that may occur if we Design the product in such a way.

Mateusz
A of.

Mateusz
The other side even if.

Mateusz
They.

Mateusz
And on the other hand, these are also the people who will then have a much greater commitment to create, to hint.

Mateusz
This.

Mateusz
They will also feel.

Mateusz
Victims of this solution.

Mateusz
Part of the process. And it's kind of a natural for me to.

Mateusz
Although to engage here.

Mateusz
All of them, all parties. It's not so obvious, probably in all teams. Then again, I don't know Allegro that well either, because it is.

Mateusz
Really huge.

Mateusz
Organization. On the other hand, I tell you how from this perspective that I just know, I know that there are simply scientific tools too, for example.

Mateusz
I don't know to what extent.

Mateusz
It is.

Mateusz
Already.

Mateusz
The tool we use I think officially, but also there is such a tool that is called master, or written as.

Mateusz
Base.

Mateusz
Which is that we put our team there. We can use it not only in Allegro. It is a tool maybe not no code, but it is something.

Mateusz
What exactly.

Mateusz
It optimizes very strongly.

Mateusz
Cost.

Mateusz
Getting people to do the research and doing the research, where we just put our mockup and there are already users out there testing the usability.

Kamil
Super, super, Well, and these are. Well these are very cool examples. Can you talk about some examples where you just as Allegro used? To build something here I'm rather ready.

Mateusz
It is about this one.

Mateusz
The service I mentioned earlier, that's where you just know. We saw external scientific tools to build not even a prototype.

Mateusz
Only already.

Mateusz
MVP. One function MVP this had only one function was just plain google forms. We didn't even change the colors to orange, just this pink one, so default. But we just tested this basic value.

Mateusz
I.

Mateusz
It turned out that there are indeed such, they are.

Mateusz
Satisfied either.

Mateusz
And if they are not satisfied, we know why and what should be done in the next iterations. And now we just went further into the stage.

Mateusz
In stage already.

Mateusz
Maybe not that implementation, but already more advanced testing. And this is, like, this is from Allegro that I can, that I can cite, so using no code, because really when it comes to no code, I think that Design Thinking, or lean startup and no code is just such a combo simply that we don't have to sometimes. Even now I'm going to be that hypocrite, but sometimes it might not even be worth losing. In the sense of it's not worth it, it's not worth spending time on these interviews, it's just worth it to verify the idea right away, very quickly and cheaply. Already learn from customers by colliding with them. It's just that it's a risk of such that sometimes we may not even know why they don't use anything, and we may not even necessarily ask, and it's harder to ask. And then there is less of that understanding. But if someone is desperate enough.

Mateusz
And motivated that.

Kamil
The tool also not that it just as I say, it will take him to create a tool than just prepare lists of questions, go after.

Mateusz
Yes, recruitment. Exactly. So, so So we have to determine for ourselves how much we are.

Mateusz
To what extent we are.

Mateusz
They are proficient in some tool. So So when it comes to Allegro, we use one internal tool. We also have a lot of no cod tools

Mateusz
I.

Mateusz
In fact, from such external tools from which.

Mateusz
Of which.

Mateusz
We use as no code, you can yes, that's how to consider it. These are simply tools for designing interactive mockups, applications, where there are no guts, there is no backend, but there is a frontend that with the user you can test and see how much it solves the problem, or.

Mateusz
Or is it useful and understandable.

Mateusz
In operation. So that's it as far as Allegro is concerned.

Kamil
OK, that's what I'd like to ask you now, well, because you've also worked a lot with startup sheep and so on. Here is a little bit to say about it, but what kind of future do you actually see in combining, for example, just this Design Thinking methodology or even Lean methodology just in combination with no code?

Mateusz
As I said.

Kamil
That's sorry, I'll add one more thing, where all of a sudden it just turns out that we as a solo founder or a startup, even a whole team with a million zlotys or dollars to spend, to build a product, we no longer have to spend 50 or 70% of our budgets on building the solution itself, but we can spend 30 40% of that budget on building that solution, and the rest on sales or marketing, which to me personally seems like building a gigantic lead or just increasing those lifters of success. No well because if we can spend more a lot of time validating an idea, marketing an idea, selling an idea that's already working because we've built it and we know it's going to scale and so on, and we're not going to have to come off of it for a very long time, well then.

Mateusz
Well, yes, in a sense. It seems to me that investors' money.

Mateusz
Which the startup acquires are.

Mateusz
Such as.

Mateusz
You said, probably most, mostly money to build. On the other hand, if we have such a situation that it turns out that we don't necessarily need to build the whole solution right away, but this core function, which is supposed to solve the user's problem, which de facto users will pay for. You can build with code yes, or at least somehow there.

Mateusz
Simulate yes, yes, or loco.

Mateusz
Or we can also simply do some of these things by coding, and do the rest of the things by hand, for example, just to check. Well, then we can spend the rest of the money simply on more experiments.

Mateusz
And it is. And then.

Mateusz
Because as we read to ourselves somewhere the definition of a startup, such a book method and startup, is a startup. It is a temporary organization that.

Mateusz
It is.

Mateusz
Set to save resources. In finding that right business model and to find that right business model. Well, we are doing a series of experiments and now.

Mateusz
We have.

Kamil
An app, because it's not associated with startups, right?

Mateusz
That's right.

Mateusz
So if we have an idea for a startup, because it turns out that now, gee, we have money from an investor and we don't have to build the solution in its entirety, but we can verify the same hypothesis for a solution. Cheaper and faster.

Mateusz
This.

Mateusz
We are able to much more expressly carry out, not only those related to our solution, but just.

Mateusz
OK.

Mateusz
Different channels can be reached. Okay, let's go to one conference, see what the results are.

Mateusz
Let's go.

Mateusz
Let's do a campaign on YouTube and on Facebook. Let's see who formulates better PR, what we get out of it, like what kind of roast we get or what kind of return we get from that advertising. It's not working? Well, let's try some I don't know, then in some magazine maybe. It all depends on what kind of idea we have. So we are able to this money.

Mateusz
Don't.

Mateusz
It won't break through because it's just building something that has a low certainty that it will simply have a lot of users right away and still paying users. And we can save this money in order to do more experiments from other, from other fields of this business model of ours. Well, because indeed startups are setting themselves up strongly to. And how we have this business model of ours and there.

Mateusz
We have.

Mateusz
Value Proposition

Mateusz
That is, we have.

Mateusz
We have either a value proposition and there we still have key resources, this key resources is just the application, often yes, well it all goes there in these Key resources so that we have this application.

Mateusz
I.

Mateusz
In fact, the whole budget goes.

Kamil
But we'll have an app if we don't have customers either.

Mateusz
Exactly. Exactly right.

Kamil
This could be our customer.

Mateusz
That's exactly right. And now how the business model needs to be verified.

Mateusz
Every element, not just one.

Mateusz
So then we can allocate part of actually this smaller part.

Mateusz
Part.

Mateusz
On the layout to build and test this hypothesis on our solution, while the rest to spend on testing the outreach channels on conducting relationships, perhaps to research some additional customer segments.

Mateusz
For some.

Mateusz
I don't know, traveling and making some alliances. Yes with partners.

Mateusz
For.

Mateusz
For that, to see what kind of earning model will be the most appropriate, because we are probably Thinking about some kind of, I don't know, subscription, but maybe, gee, let's try to do it another way. Maybe other money will have to be spent on it to get customers that way. This money we can then use for other experiments, which are also, not, which are also expensive. That is, those tests at least of outreach channels, where you sometimes have to spend, I don't know, a couple of thousand zlotys or thereabouts on campaigns.

Mateusz
Dollars.

Mateusz
Or go to a conference.

Mateusz
And check.

Mateusz
Which of these channels works better gives the best return on investment.

Mateusz
So well for me.

Mateusz
For me, first and foremost, I think the investor's money. Already having all this, of course, having an idea.

Mateusz
What we want.

Mateusz
To deliver, well first of all I would try to find, as if to save money to build this solution using no code or some other ways to verify this idea and. And that money would go into as many experiments as possible in as short a time as possible, because a startup by definition

Mateusz
is like,

Mateusz
a temporary organization focused on finding the right business model. So the sooner we find one.

Mateusz
Tym.

Kamil
Simply the chance of success that.

Mateusz
Exactly. If someone acts like this, let's do it.

Mateusz
Exactly, that let's use this money to realize the other elements of the business model and thus find the right one faster. Not in two years or five, but maybe in a year and we'll start being profitable after a year, or a year and a half, not just the first year of building. The second year is about finding customers. That's basically how it should be as soon as possible. In the first place it's looking for customers. Only the solution. So that's how I would approach it and everything. In my opinion.

Mateusz
no code i.

Mateusz
The new tools that are being developed, because there is a mass of them, are.

Mateusz
Great.

Mateusz
Just as there are tools to verify, verify the hypothesis already from this phase, when we have a concrete idea, and there are even solutions such as Mace that allow us to optimize even this earlier phase. So in terms of recruitment

Mateusz
For research, for example.

Kamil
Super! Matthew, thank you very much. I'm the one who wanted to follow up with you a little bit more, because I think we've talked everything down to what you do, what your experience is, what your course is, what is Design Thinking, how exactly does it work, how do organizations use it, who should use it? How can startups use it? How about large companies do you use it? I think we have talked ourselves through very broadly. Cool the topic of just this validation through this Design Thinking. How can it even work? We also briefly said how cool it can work, for example, just with no cod tools. So at the end I would like to ask you about such a personal reflection of yours, or rather the project you are most proud of?

Mateusz
You know what it is.

Mateusz
There is a project that I have already mentioned? I think it is this service, this service.

Mateusz
W.

Mateusz
Allegro, even though she isn't even there yet.

Mateusz
Such.

Mateusz
A service that we offer widely. We don't offer at all basically yet, but working on it. And I don't mean the end result, I mean more the way of working.

Mateusz
And what benefits do we have from this work effect, not de facto also from this service, because it's kind of, I separate this service a little bit, it's going to kind of live there already, probably in Allegro, we're going to develop it further there.

Mateusz
And i.

Mateusz
Implement. And also by the way with this project.

Mateusz
It came out a lot.

Mateusz
More possible applications of this service or concept behind it now even internally.

Mateusz
Yes.

Mateusz
Exactly. New ideas internally we are able to already here we have a problem, we see as if.

Mateusz
And we're going.

Mateusz
Whereas with this service we are taking off a bit, we have also found a bit of a different niche, as far as we are concerned.

Mateusz
About this service, but I am out of it.

Mateusz
As if from this job. In addition, for this service I am most proud, because.

Mateusz
I proved together.

Mateusz
With a colleague that Design Thinking approach and approach just so no cod

Mateusz
It works. Meaning.

Mateusz
If a person really has the right mindset and it is not necessary to just now read in books and.

Mateusz
I.

Mateusz
Do person, just you can really very quickly, having the right mindset, knowing the tools very quickly, within two weeks validate really advanced service ideas. We were able to build an MVP in five hours. We were able to.

Mateusz
Make making short time

Kamil
right ?

Mateusz
Yes, because it was.

Mateusz
Connection simply.

Mateusz
Two.

Mateusz
Three tools.

Mateusz
In one.

Mateusz
But before we did this MVP, we looked at all the potential for this service. And also it took us more time to find a person who knows how to tap into this no code tool that we have internally, than it did to then tap out this landing page. Because it took a day and a half to click out the landing page.

Mateusz
And finding a person a total of 2 weeks.

Kamil
So the difference is gigantic.

Mateusz
And that's exactly what a corporation is. So that it's just so heavily, so many people and very many different dependencies that it just goes on like that. And also to the point. We were, we were. The effect is that we, from the very beginning, were not fixated on whether to implement this solution. Whether it should be some there only. OK, we have such an idea, then check whether those are interested at all. And in general, does such a problem even exist? Is he painful? And it turned out that to find out if it's painful, if it is, that is, for example, if the merchants are paying for solutions at all, well, how do you do it quickly?

Mateusz
Aha, then let's go in.

Mateusz
Sobie on the vendor groups, let's go into the search engine, let's type in the keyword such and such. And it came out to us that these pay for this, for example, there I don't know, how many zlotys a month or 600 zlotys a month for this. Aha, that is, they pay for it and that is. And then they still write there in the comments O gee, someone spent how much time on this, No?

Mateusz
That is, we have.

Mateusz
We have a premise that this problem exists. Then check now how you, how widely it occurs, how much is also how much is also interested in this solution. So a landing page with an offer, a survey and we have this confirmation only then this MVP.

Mateusz
So we succeeded in that, too.

Kamil
Make thousands of gold. At this point such.

Mateusz
It simply cost $45 in total.

Kamil
That is, about a thousand zlotys. Tools are known to be necessary, because yes. Time spent is, of course, incomparably less cost than you would go the traditional method.

Mateusz
Of course.

Mateusz
And you know, and it was for me. I was proud of three things. First, just that cool idea. But knowing, we don't fall in love. Let's check. Here with a colleague we have sort of.

Mateusz
This one.

Mateusz
Mindset. We had that mindset, we kind of went, we didn't look as if we were going to roll and super successful just achieve. Okay, let's check.

Mateusz
We don't fall in love, that is.

Mateusz
The first thing. The second thing is this.

Mateusz
That.

Mateusz
Ok, we are in a corpo. How do you do it in a corpo? Just not the traditional way. So we were able to find such things just because. Okay. Peter, then we have 2 weeks, then if we had 2 weeks how would we do it? Well, and we came up with it, we did it in two weeks, well, because we asked ourselves such a question in the first place

Mateusz
And.

Mateusz
The third thing probably the most proud is that just.

Mateusz
This

Mateusz
The last thing we thought about was that it would actually give us cool results. In the sense that we didn't know if we would achieve a specific rate there, there CTR u

Mateusz
But we have achieved.

Mateusz
And great, because if we achieved, well, goodbye to this idea. Goodbye. But it turned out differently.

Mateusz
And for.

Mateusz
Nas was the rationale for going another step, another step further, so the results were there too. I'm proud of those results, too. It just worked out that way, because they validated the hypotheses positively. On the other hand, if they had not validated positively, well, I would have been proud too, for the reason that I did not drown afterwards.

Mateusz
More efforts.

Mateusz
I didn't sell something with poor fundamentals in the organization. How about someone else to me.

Mateusz
He believed my sales pitch and we would do.

Mateusz
The project? Yes we would invest in a project that would just at the time of release.

Mateusz
It wouldn't have any users. So like also in a way a success. Well, because I would have saved my credibility.

Mateusz
And in general, too.

Mateusz
The feeling afterwards of frustration resulting from so much time.

Mateusz
For.

Mateusz
Marginal, But it turned out otherwise. So we had arguments such empirical, that this satisfaction also an argument that listen, here decision makers, it's worth doing and it's worth doing. And we have an idea for it. Next. How to, how to run it, so that's the project, that's it.

Mateusz
And I guess that's the project.

Mateusz
The closest to me, in the memory of which I am most proud, although the Academy is also such a project for me, but this is the most recent and such a model.

Mateusz
Project.

Mateusz
Short time.

Mateusz
And really.

Mateusz
It took us a total of probably 2 months, well, for example, because we waited 4 weeks for the results, as after.

Mateusz
A simple test.

Mateusz
It worked and they checked. We just had.

Mateusz
Number.

Mateusz
Input displays sort of give yourself 4 weeks is also a time of sort of waiting, collecting results.

Kamil
Techniques that will be authoritative.

Mateusz
Well some statistical significance there to be had. So, well, yes, this is a year that I'm proud of and I recommend everyone to act this way.

Kamil
Super, super to me, to me it sounds extra, because it just shows you just how you can use this whole process, how you can use these modern software tools for this very thing, how de facto you can book it even so much organization, Well, because also just as I'm talking about the Academy, well you also said how you can make it small. So I feel that we have the topic beautifully, beautifully covered. So my last question would you Matthew like to say something in conclusion to our listeners?

Mateusz
Just to recap, I guess I'll just go back to what I'm proud of, because there we were Thinking Okay, this is what the Design Thinking process looks like, then what tool to use now? It's like we didn't go in the mode that we now have these methods and let's use them. We just had a mindset, which can just be summed up to make sure the problems are there, make a quick prototype, verify your assumptions. And then the third one is just think. I don't think I'm going to come up with a third one, just verify the hypotheses.

Mateusz
As for the problems do a quick one.

Mateusz
Quick, rapid prototype and test. There are three things that sound maybe very simple and better.

Kamil
Business Recipe.

Mateusz
A recipe for business, while it is important to have this mindset, not to be satisfied with simply that ok. I like it my friend, second, third, some potential customer and I go. Well no, as if we stated let's do it with integrity. And it was like reliability Here I think was the most important thing. Because when you do use some methods, really do a check point to do it reliably. Well, because that's when the magic happens, when we don't pretend in front of ourselves that we did 3 interviews suggesting that everyone said so cool and we keep doing it, right? Well that's not the point.

Mateusz
So o.

Mateusz
One last such thing is to verify my hypothesis.

Mateusz
I.

Mateusz
What I always say at every training or workshop, that disproving hypotheses is not bad. What is bad is not verifying these hypotheses. We were ready for that, for those hypotheses not to be confirmed either, because the information is not worth dealing with simply and that's it.

Kamil
That's how it is, that's something that we also always do internally around when we work with our clients, when they come to us with ideas, bombard us from every possible direction, just as if we were dropping atomic bombs on it. The point is that then, if such an idea withstands this test, it means that it's really worth going to pursue this idea and not that one. Well, because there are always a multitude of ideas, but the question is what we will implement and whether it will make de facto sense. So Matthew, thank you very much for this conversation.

Mateusz
I, too, thank you for the invitation.

Mateusz
I would love to talk some more, but I don't want to anymore.

Kamil
As it was more than once, so we will still agree. I just to summarize, I will say that validate your ideas, because it simply allows us to save money, reduce risk, and increase those indicators that can affect the success or our business venture. Whether implementing something in the organization, it just makes a lot of sense. As you heard after the interview with Matthew. You can do it yourself, you can do it in large organizations, so de facto let's not be afraid to validate ideas, to test, because ideas really come up a multitude all the time. And it's better to validate, your idea to realize the one that will make sense, than to simply follow the voice of emotions or the voice of the heart, which tells us that just this one idea will be perfect, because you can simply lose a lot on it. That's it from us for today. Thanks and until we hear from you.

Mateusz
Thanks. Hi!

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